Comrades in Arms Discussion Board

Here's a discussion we had yesterday on the Skype chat, regarding usage of CAS in missions from the gameplay and mission making perspective. I think you can find it helpful in case you are considering if and how to incorporate CAS assets in your mission, especially in the aspect of keeping the chopper team in the action but not taking too much of it from the ground team. Posted with the participants' permission.

[16/11/2015 17:51:48] Variable: jeez last night games were  A W E S O M E
[16/11/2015 17:52:22] Alwarren: First mission I died within five minues -_-
Second mission TBH, I was a bit underwhelmed. It was okay.
Third mission, I really liked
[16/11/2015 17:52:40] Alwarren: Etzu beat me to the Hind gunner seat -_-
[16/11/2015 17:53:23] Variable: oh, yeah, I had fun because I got to pilot the Hind and seen a lot of action
[16/11/2015 17:53:51] Alwarren: Yeah... I hardly fired a shot, and I lugged the RPG-7 around for the whole time and never got to shoot it.
[16/11/2015 17:54:47] Variable: sorry :/
[16/11/2015 17:55:10] Alwarren: Why sorry, wasn't your fault
[16/11/2015 17:55:24] Variable: It was, I took all your potential targets
[16/11/2015 17:56:08] Alwarren: That's inherent. There wasn't really much danger for the Hind, so most of the time, the infantry had nothing to do. It's also a matter of how you lead such a mission.
[16/11/2015 17:57:20] Variable: Outlawz lead it like it should in real life, and that means minimizing risk to the ground force
[16/11/2015 17:57:35] Variable: and that makes for a boring experience...
[16/11/2015 17:57:39] Alwarren: Yeah of course. It also means that the ground forces were mostly bored.
[16/11/2015 17:58:16] Variable: that's what I said
[16/11/2015 17:58:28] Alwarren: I was already typing when I read your reply
[16/11/2015 17:59:19] Alwarren: I'm always skeptical with adding chopper support unless there is something that can take down the chopper easily
[16/11/2015 18:00:51] Variable: chopper support need to be mitigated with lots of infantry targets in buildings
[16/11/2015 18:00:58] Variable: helicopters can't do much about that
[16/11/2015 18:01:22] Alwarren: Yeah, or with a real danger to the chopper that the infantry needs to clear.
[16/11/2015 18:01:45] Alwarren: Mission balancing is really hard
[16/11/2015 18:01:48 | Edited 18:01:55] Variable: yeah, but then you have the pilots waiting
[16/11/2015 18:02:20] Alwarren: Well the pilots will be waiting either way. If you have stuff in the buildings, they can't really do anything either
[16/11/2015 18:02:47] Doveman: I guess you can have an unarmed chopper for transport and recon (like a big UAV!), then you don't need to have lots of threats against it and it can't kill all the enemy and make things boring for the ground troops.
[16/11/2015 18:03:14] Variable: Well the pilots will be waiting either way, but if you have stuff in the buildings, the pilots can kill armor that is trying to stop the infantry team from clearing those buildings.
[16/11/2015 18:03:49] Alwarren: Well that always depends on the scenario.
[16/11/2015 18:04:16] Variable: It can be a lot of other challenges, not necesarily armor
[16/11/2015 18:04:32] Doveman: If you remove the gun ammo and only give the chopper a few rockets/missiles to take out armour then it prevents it killing all the infantry.
[16/11/2015 18:05:23] Variable: if any, I'd do the opposite. remove missiles and leave the chin gun, more challenging, and can hold longer
[16/11/2015 18:06:00] Doveman: that's not much use against armour though is it? and it means the chopper can kill all the infantry.
[16/11/2015 18:06:59] Variable: it doesn't have to be armor, it can be trucks or MRAPs
[16/11/2015 18:07:03] Variable: or other choppers
[16/11/2015 18:07:06] Variable: or UAVs
[16/11/2015 18:09:45] Doveman: yeah, it's just that if the chopper has the gun and it spots infantry it's bound to shoot them, particularly if it thinks they're a threat to the ground troops, which then makes life boring for the ground troops. Obviously you can tell the gunner not to shoot at infantry but it's hard to avoid that if he thinks the ground troops are at risk of being killed.
[16/11/2015 18:10:19] Alwarren: TBH, I think limiting the ammo of a chopper works only if there is a resource shortage.
[16/11/2015 18:10:36] Alwarren: Other than that, why would a chopper even take off with only a minimal weapon load
[16/11/2015 18:10:37] Variable: sure, I thought we were still on the subject of infantry targets inside buildings
[16/11/2015 18:10:41] Phantom: [Monday, November 16, 2015 17:57] Alwarren:
<<< Yeah of course. It also means that the ground forces were mostly bored.should make more phantom missions where the ground forces don't get bored.... but murdered
[16/11/2015 18:10:47] Doveman: lol
[16/11/2015 18:10:48] Alwarren:
[16/11/2015 18:11:15] Variable: [Monday, November 16, 2015 17:57] Alwarren: Other than that, why would a chopper even take off with only a minimal weapon load
<<< routed from another mission
[16/11/2015 18:11:39] Variable: like in Red Storm Rising, the Eagles that strafe that big ass ship
[16/11/2015 18:11:47] Variable: with their 20mm cannons
[16/11/2015 18:12:13] Alwarren: Well yeah, that works once or twice, but you can't do that in every mission that includes a chopper.
[16/11/2015 18:12:40] Variable: yeah, I'd deplete the ammo by providing a target rich environment
[16/11/2015 18:13:26] Alwarren: I like to do it like in Felis Infernalis. Have the chopper be able to engage, but he needs to be VERY careful. On top of that, infantry is right in the action so just banging your missiles into town won't work. And finally, I should really include more civilians into my missions, because that is always a stop sign for WMD
[16/11/2015 18:14:06] Variable: right, but in these cases, it usually ends with the helicopter's demise
[16/11/2015 18:14:45] Alwarren: It might, yeah. There is always a risk. The same usually holds true for APC's, still you CAN make things survive until the end, you just need to be careful
[16/11/2015 18:15:50] Doveman: or if you have lots of AA that the infantry have to take out before the chopper can enter the arena, then at least they've seen some action before he gets involved.
[16/11/2015 18:16:33] Variable: yeah, as long as taking out the AA won't take too much time, have the team start close to the AA
[16/11/2015 18:16:35] Alwarren: Well AA is problematic, this works if there is only one or two, but if there are manpads, you are bound to overlook one.
[16/11/2015 18:17:13] Doveman: OK, no manpads then
[16/11/2015 18:17:32] Varanon: I still think MANPADS sounds like a male sanitary product :|
[16/11/2015 18:17:41] Alwarren: hehe
[16/11/2015 18:17:49] Doveman: When I say lots of AA, I only really mean enough to make it unsafe for the chopper until the infantry have cleared the way.

My two cents on this subject:

I made a mission for Arma 2, called Scramble: Ground (There was a Scramble: Air as well, which was the same mission but you played the choppers).

It was on Zargabad, and the setup was as follows: Three Apache gunships, a platoon of Strikers (with the 105 mm cannon), and A LOT of infantry. On the other side, two Hinds, a platoon of t-72s, a platoon of BMP-2s, and even more infantry.

The players were a group of 12 (or 10, can't remember exactly). Mission objective: repell the atack. In Scramble: Ground, the heols were AI controlled (the roles were reversed in Scramble: Air).

Alwarren and me test played the mission several times, and I played it myself several times through. The result was, of course, different every time (it's Arma after all).

However, it was always very action packed. The first thing that always happened was missiles flying overhead when the Apache gunships came in sight of the first armor targets. Most of the time, this wasn't enough to kill all the armor. After the first pass, the Apaches were almost always molested by the Hinds, and usually, the air battle lasted for some times, giving the ground a bit of pressure from the oncoming armor. The strikers could handle most armor, but not all. The player team almost always had to deal with armored targets as well.

The reason why I think this mission worked was, IMHO, the terrain: It was on the outskirts of Zargabad, with lots of isolated farms and compounds. The choppers had a hard time getting the armor because they were always obscured by buildings.

I don't know how good a player controlled helo would do there, but the AI ones were usually quite baffled by the hidden armor.

Most of the time, at least one or two Apaches survived until the end of the mission. In several playthroughs, I also had to deal with a Hind myself (by having my AA guy shoot it down).

Of course, the infantry's main occupation was other infantry. Enemy infantry was taking cover in buildings and courtyards, so it was mostly the infantry that had to deal with those.

Looking at the mission list, the mission is marked as completed on the server, so CiA played it. I wonder how it went down for those that were playing ?

Well, moral of the story, I think there are at least three contributing factors to the whole equation:

1. Terrain: Infantry and Armor was obscured by terrain, so the helos were not always able to engage armor
   
2. The presence of other air threats: The Hinds were able to bind the Apaches into an air to air combat, allowing the ground forces to engage some of the armor before the Apaches could even do it temselves
   
3. Tipping the scales: In this particular mission, I made the enemy armored force a bit larger, while making their air force a bit less effective (two hinds vs three Apaches, but two armored platoons against one). The effect was a longer lasting air battle, while the enemy armor was able to somewhat overpower the friendly armor.
   

I guess that presenting a challenging enemy to the air forces (preferably another air asset) either from the start, or during the mission, will distract the air force from their original job, giving the ground crew some more stuff to do (and a lot to see, most of the times the playthroughs I had had a lot of explosions and stuff, low flying helicopters and some armor battles).

Wow, sounds like an awesome mission. Don't think I had the pleasure of playing that one (it sounds quite memorable, so I think I'd remember it!)

I like the idea about enemy air threats. I can see that having to deal with enemy choppers could distract the friendly ones and draw them away from the area where the ground troops are, so our choppers aren't just hanging around there, taking out most of the ground threats and leaving the ground troops with little to do.

Perhaps another option could be to have mortars/artillery somewhere away from where the ground troops need to fight but which is a threat to them and have the chopper have to go there to take it out so that the ground troops can do their job? If it's far enough away, then it will take the chopper a while to get back (maybe have some other stuff for it to deal with on the way back that's advancing on the friendly ground troops) to avoid the chopper killing the stuff the ground troops are meant to deal with.

Good reading.

Yeah, the mission turned out differently as I planned. I think I eliminate APC entirely so Hind has to air lift infantry as well provide CAS. Now there was lot of sitting in APC of Cthulhu.

I meant it as rock-paper-shotgun type of a mission. Infantry observes village and  eliminates AA/AT soldiers on roofs. APC eliminates static nests/infantry patrols outside with HMG fire and CAS deals with vehicles at long range with at-missiles. Infantry mops up, and if they run into difficulties or strongly fortified building, they call in helicopter to turn the building to a smoking pile. Everyone has something to do.

There were lot of threats for Hind in village. Stingers, vehicles with HMGs, even a random chance for Shilka. Losing helicopter was a serious risk, but you mitigated it by playing smart. Exactly the point. But, losing it was still possibility and thats why infantryman has RPG. There had to be alternate way to deal with vehicle, if you lose support.

However my Grand Vision and actual mission experience were two different things.

TLR

Rock-paper-scissors.

If there is CAS (or a vehicle in general), there has to be a measured and sane threat for the helicopter, and a way to eliminate/mitigate the threat so flying CAS with a bit of thinking is playable, it contributes to mission and it is fun for CAS crew. If there is infantry, again, there has to be something to do, but preferably something that infantry can't get done alone without extra risks.  Losing vehicle also shouldn't make mission impossible, just harder

Yeah. Easier said than done.

Further analysis: 

If CAS does its job right, infantryman does not have to use his rifle.

That's the entire point.

Well done CAS means less work for boots on the ground, which means less danger, which means less casualties, and that's usually the point. Clearing buildings is extremely dangerous in rl even for trained guys. You seriously don't want to do it, unless you really have to. Modern armed forces are willing to spend hell of a lot of dollars to save a life of single infantryman. 30 years ago if you knew  there were bad guys in a building, you went personally to check it out old fashioned way. Now you shoot a Javelin to it, or call CAS. Modern society vs ability to handle casualties in media and all that. During recent conflicts in asymmetric warfare, standard procedure with confirmed bad guys inside complex  has been to call Bradley/similar to the scene and Bushmaster the crap out of the residents through walls.  Effective and saves lives. But would that be fun?

I am perverse enough of a person that I would be inclined to say personal yes. I would be content to watch vehicle to turn a building with multiple Altis Lifers to a parking lot. I don't care if I get kills. I care for teamwork, and if it means watching big guns do the job so my virtual comrades are safe, I like it. I immerse to missions more than perhaps most of players and to me at least somewhat realistic teamwork is the spice even at the cost of less action. Sure, sometimes 'home defense against Illuminati' and full frontal assaults with handful of men are lot of fun but majority of missions are tactical teamwork. What I gather, most of CiA players are somewhat similar and that's why I like the coop nights. That said , you have to draw the line somewhere.

In nutshell, there still has to be something meaningful to do. Doing doesn't mean shooting or killing. It can be operating UAV. Providing recon, targeting. Heck, I would love to play a mission where I drive a truck back and forth and haul ammo to comrades holding the line. I don't shoot a single round, but I feel I contribute.

I'm not going to poke 'Arma3 vs realism' can of worms even with a silenced rifle, but to me too , the most single difficult thing in mission making is not scripts, it is indeed balancing difficulty. So many factors. Losing vehicle makes mission more challenge for infantry, but CAS crew has lots of seagull time. Evading  SAM with flare makes mission exciting. Getting shot down means seagull time. Getting headshot is ticket to TS lobby. 10cm below and Psycho saves the day. Difference between challenging fun mission vs boring mission is sometimes very small things.

Yeah, it is really hard.

Another idea to force the CAS not demolish buildings with enemies would be to place an item that has to be retrieved or an enemy (body) that has to be identified using an action.

Maybe an officer has been taken hostage and the CAS risks vaporizing him then failing the mission if they blanket the area with warheads, so fire missions have to be precise and coordinated by a forward man on the ground.

Something to add too. I made a mission back then called hedgehogs about snipers with blackhawk support, which only has miniguns. I didnt play it but the debriefing says it got shot down by apc WHILE flying. There was also another comment about riflemen being able to shoot and kill the pilot of a jet in his cockpit. I guess CAS doesn't have it easy since just about anything not only AA can shoot you down.

The issue I had with this particular mission was that both the APC and helicopter were there to support the infantry team, but really only one could do it at a time. Either we were transported by APC or by Hind, at one point I had to juggle being split into two fireteams, getting the APC to reach us and keeping track of Hind's CAS runs.

I had my hands and head full but if we in infantry had it boring then APC had it worse since I sent it running around the place for most of the mission.

There was a civilian area in the mission, I think it would have made things more difficult if it was mixed with hostile area so that Hind couldn't raze everything to the ground without consequence. If there was ammo resupply, it should have been removed so the Hind would have to make do with what it had at start.

Yeah. Original Big Idea was that infantry commander can use the other vehicle as extra asset to recon/scout ahead, or as a dedicated fire support platform and other vehicle does the transporting.  Unfortunately the BTR was completely wrong choice for this mission scope. I likely remove the APC from the mission.

Service trucks have limited supplies. I used setAmmoCargo command to limit the load, but it seems I used too large value and there is ammo for several runs, which wasn't intended : / 

First version of mission had civs, but their behaviour was something between LSD trip and panic of alien landing. Had I been smart © I would have used this disableAI "MOVE" or something, and added them to random locations so Hind couldn't nuke too much of the town without consequences. 

(11-17-2015, 08:42 PM)Stagwine link Wrote: [ -> ]Service trucks have limited supplies. I used setAmmoCargo command to limit the load, but it seems I used too large value and there is ammo for several runs, which wasn't intended : / 

We only did one resupply run.

(11-17-2015, 07:47 PM)Outlawz7 link Wrote: [ -> ]There was a civilian area in the mission, I think it would have made things more difficult if it was mixed with hostile area so that Hind couldn't raze everything to the ground without consequence.

That's the setup I chose for Felis Infernalis. With Civilians on site, the chopper needs to be directed by the ground team, and large portions of the target area are off limits. In general, since there are no longer the modules from Arma 2, we hardly ever see missions with civilians on them (Shame on you BIS for not porting the modules. Shame! Shame! Shame... sorry I got carried away). As I was saying, the civilian prevent large scale attacks, making the gunship less of a sledge hammer but more of a scalpel, needing directions ("attack this hill, it's confirmed clear of civilians").

This works even without too much air defense.