Comrades in Arms Discussion Board

Mission was great fun for me again. However there were some things which didn't go so well.
First there was a friendly fire incident during our halt at the first checkpoint. Can someone bring some light into this?
Second, the first civilian has been killed relatively early in the mission by the BMP. I have to admit though that I forgot to state clear Rules of Engagement during the briefing and making up for this during the running mission was a suboptimal solution because I had the feeling it was overheared and/or not completely passed to every member in the heat of the battle. On the other hand the briefing was pretty clear about civilian presence in the AO...

I think I tried to micromanage too much in the beginning of the mission (between CP1 and CP2) but as the mission progressed I managed to give more general orders to the squadleaders gum and Anguis.
While Marto was sticking more to an exclusive forward observer role in the beginning of the mission he acted more as a platoon sergeant towards the end of the mission, cross talking with gum and Anguis to get fire missions onto the enemy, assisting in the BMP maintenance etc.
Osku did a good job as medic and kept our backs clear from unpleasant surprises, hopefully the MT-LB shoot-em-up action during the end of the mission compensated for your relative boredom during the rest of the mission.

Unfortunately whole Anguis' squad got blown up while mounted in the BMP.
By and large everyone did a good job again, thanks for participating and special thanks to Marto for this nice mission.

Some impressions from the last third of the mission:
Gum's Antitank team setting up to engage enemy BTR at the crossroads:


Hit:


Command element destroying enemy equipment at the crossroads:


Marto will have some surprise screenshots too 

Hey Zwobot and everyone,

I think it was again good teamwork by everyone and a very fun mission!

The biggest problem I found was before the mission: it took us 35 minutes to slot in and get to the briefing - it would be nice if this didn't happen, especially with a pre-slotted/planned mission. I understand not everyone can commit for sure, but it would be nice for everyone to be there at 2000hrs, with teamspeak/channel commander already set up ready for the final briefing.

Ironically though, it worked out well that Anguis turned up a bit late and was "forced" into a team leader slot by "peer pressure" - in which he performed extremely well and lead his squad admirably!

I will provide a Scheme of Maneuver as I saw it, refering to the map I took a screenshot of, which is the actual battle map from the mission, and add some screenshots later:



We moved out south towards "the nipples" as a platoon, Anguis' squad mounted on the BMP, Gum's on the MTLB and PHQ in the command BMP. First contact was a three-man IED team near a building north of CP1 (check point 1). Squads remained mounted and these enemy were destroyed by 7.62 fire from the AFVs.

Once at CP1, we all dismounted and contact was made with a 6-10 man enemy squad at tgt01, who began to assault towards us. They were destroyed by AFV fire and a 152mm firemission cutting their withdrawal off at the tgt01.

We then moved to the tgt01 position and multiple contacts  were made with numerous enemy infantry squads in the forrests west at tgt02, tgt03 and tgt04. These were destroyed by a combination of AFV fire, dismounted small arms fire and numerous artillery fire missions.

Contact was also made at a church on the 89 feature to the NE, these were only several enemy infantry and were suppressed by 7.62 fire from the BMP at long range, and bypassed to push on towards the mission objectives.

We then moved to CP2 and numerous infantry and light AFV contacts were made around Yvetot and the farm area. All were engaged and mostly destroyed with small arms and the AFV weapons systems including the AT-5 "Konkurs" on the BMP. I think this is where the first civillian collateral dammage occured from HEAT rounds from the 73mm main gun of the BMP. I think Variable killed some babies and women.

I think then (correct me if I'm wrong), Gum's squad maneuvered and cleared around CP3, while Anguis' squad and BMP provided firesupport from the left nipple (CP2). Anguis' squad prepared to move to Gum's position, Zwobot requested a smoke mission to screen their move but the artillery unit was "Unable to comply". They didn't have any smoke rounds with them. A WP (white phosphorous) screening mission was called instead at tgt05 and Anguis' squad moved to Gum's position (CP3) and prepared to clear Yvetot.

I think it was Anguis' squad that cleared the town (maybe Gum's squad as well). Yvetot was cleared house to house by our dismounted infantry, with no civilian casualties (until later - in the screenshots you will see...). Terrorists had taken up fire positions in buildings occupied by civilians. Around this time some light friendly casualties occured (I think Slash got a splinter in his finger).

Yvetot was cleared and secured. and PHQ moved into the town. Zwobot set up a command post in the town, Osku (medic) treated casualties then and just before, and I (PL SGT) conducted some battlefield clearance, and dammage assessment in the town.

Gum's squad pushed up onto the feature SW of Yvetot (tgt06). Anguis' BMP sustained some dammage from enemy fire, and withdrew first to PHQ, then to our main HQ at the start location to repair, rearm and refuel.

Gum's squad contacted large groups of enemy infantry around tgt07 and the "more inf" marker. The enemy began to assault Gum's squad's position. Gum's squad delayed them with small arms fire and withdrew back towards Yvetot, and Gum requested fire missions on tgt07 and tgt06 - their previous location. the enemy were destroyed or withdrew under small arms and artillery fire.

Anguis' squad mounted and moved towards the east near tgt02. Anguis' BMP destroyed an enemy BMP-1 and M113 near the farm. It was around this time that Anguis' BMP and whole mounted squad was destroyed. I am pretty sure they were engaged by a BTR-80 IFV with a 30mm gun from the roadblock location. Frantic radio messages followed:

PL Comd: "Anyone alive in Anguis' squad?"

PL Comd: "I say again, anyone alive in Anguis' squad?"

Corporal Anguis: "Dead men don't talk."

Gum's squad then pushed back up the hill (tgt06) and PHQ moved there also on foot. Gum's antiarmour element maneuvered and approached the roadblock from the west, destroying the BTR-80 with RPG-27 fire. At the same time Osku and myself crewed Gum's MTLB and engaged small enemy infantry teams near outbuildings around the farm with 7.62mm fire. Gum's squad cleared the roadblock, and advanced on the final objective at the farm.

PHQ moved to the roadblock location and destroyed the remaining equipment (tripod mounted 12.7mm DSHK) with a satchel charge. Gum's squad assaulted the farm, cleared the buildings and destroyed all remaining disorganised and defeated enemy.

Objective 1 and 2 complete and ticked, objective 3 (no civillian casualties) failed.



Sustains:
1. Again teamwork was excellent and solid leading by Gum, Anguis and Zwobot.

2. I think the firesupport from the vehicles was managed well - each vehicle was used to support their squad, and squad commanders had control over them.

3. Squad leaders coordinated very well with PHQ to request medic support and artillery support.

4. I found this point very good and important, when squads encountered larger enemy opposition or too dangerous situations they withdrew, called in firesupport (artillery, AFV) and dealt with the enemy in a smart way increasing their survivability. A good example was Gum's squad with their contacts around tgt06 and tgt07.

Improves:
1. Obviously the ROE (rules of engagement) need to be passed down and communicated better. Could have been a misunderstanding between squad leaders and their men.

2. Putting all your eggs in one basket... As Anguis' squad found out... Need to be mindful of travelling mounted close to enemy, or selecting a definately covered route.

3. Time to slot and get the mission to the briefing stage - took too long, and then Zwobot had to rush his briefing. We can easily improve this by posting your selected positions, especially squad leaders, so that we can be more prepared and get the mission going quicker.
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Zwobot, I don't think you micromanaged at all. You gave squads a task and purpose and let them figure out how to complete it - mission command.

A good control measure we could also use is phase lines or control lines. A line or feature marked on the map and when given a task a squad is to advance, clear, attack etc and when they have reached the phase or report line they are to report in to the commander so he can then coordinate all the other squads. Just a simple way to keep tabs on the progress of squads and coordinate fire support and avoid frendlies entering blue engagement areas.

I had a lot of fun even though I didn't fire my personal weapon in anger, I think Osku is the same. Besides anyone slotting into a medic, forward observer, PL SGT slot etc knows and expects that they will not be on the front line shooting, rather performing other important tasks.

Some questions:
1. Did anyone use their RPO-A launchers and if so how did they go?

2. How did the RPG-27s go? Did youknow which aiming points to use? What range did you engage?

3. How did the artillery look? Was it effective? Anyone get any screenshots? I was too busy calling in the firemissions and coordinating to get any when rounds were hitting the dirt...
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Again to sum up, it was a good, fun mission, and everyone coordinated and worked very well as a team!

Everyone please feel free to add your observations, criticisms, comments, screenshots, etc below.

Marto, thank you for this in-depth debriefing of events.

(12-07-2009, 02:05 PM)Marto link Wrote: [ -> ]The biggest problem I found was before the mission: it took us 35 minutes to slot in and get to the briefing - it would be nice if this didn't happen, especially with a pre-slotted/planned mission. I understand not everyone can commit for sure, but it would be nice for everyone to be there at 2000hrs, with teamspeak/channel commander already set up ready for the final briefing.

I totally agree with this. 35 minutes is way too long to get a mission with ahead planning going. Apperantly not everyone checks the froum regularly for mission announcements or at least don't participate in the pre-mission slot selection. But we should find a way to at least get the most important slots assigned in the forum planning phase of those missions: Commander, Squadleaders and other essential slots like Forward Observers...

(12-07-2009, 02:05 PM)Marto link Wrote: [ -> ]Sustains:
2. I think the firesupport from the vehicles was managed well - each vehicle was used to support their squad, and squad commanders had control over them.

4. I found this point very good and important, when squads encountered larger enemy opposition or too dangerous situations they withdrew, called in firesupport (artillery, AFV) and dealt with the enemy in a smart way increasing their survivability. A good example was Gum's squad with their contacts around tgt06 and tgt07.

I recognised those points too. I was pleasantly surprised how long the vehicles survived, using shoot and scoot tactics to preserve themselves until:

(12-07-2009, 02:05 PM)Marto link Wrote: [ -> ]2. Putting all your eggs in one basket... As Anguis' squad found out... Need to be mindful of travelling mounted close to enemy, or selecting a definately covered route.

happened 

(12-07-2009, 02:05 PM)Marto link Wrote: [ -> ]A good control measure we could also use is phase lines or control lines. A line or feature marked on the map and when given a task a squad is to advance, clear, attack etc and when they have reached the phase or report line they are to report in to the commander so he can then coordinate all the other squads. Just a simple way to keep tabs on the progress of squads and coordinate fire support and avoid frendlies entering blue engagement areas.

I like the idea, actually I tried to use this to some degree already with the CP1 to CP3 markers. This could be extended more in future missions to speed up orders and situation/contact reports.

Another thing came to my mind: there was a very noticeable command delay, probably caused by the presence of the vehicles and mounted movements. It was very noticeable when I ordered Anguis squad to move into the village. The nice WP smoke screen to cover their movement was long gone when their BMP finally started moving into the village. I totally underestimated the time it takes to mount up the squad, chose a route etc. etc., nice experience 

(12-07-2009, 01:04 AM)Zwobot link Wrote: [ -> ][...]
First there was a friendly fire incident during our halt at the first checkpoint. Can someone bring some light into this?
[...]

Siil was in the wrong TS channel, hence mounting the wrong vehicle. When we finally found out he ran back to his actual squad. Our gunner just saw a single AT soldier runnings towards our position and opened fire.

It was good game, indeed. Good work everyone.

Originally I was slotted as Crewman, but since Grip wasn't able to join - I switched to medic slot.
Few things from my point of view; I didn't know exactly what was happening in the battlefield, because I stayed back/in cover, and perhaps had not concentrated on the mission plan well enough.
But after all, everything worked out very well and all wounded soldiers were patched up.

Zwobot, assigning me as MT-LB gunner wasn't really necessary in the name of "boredom", and it's not good to have medic assaulting bunch of enemy soldiers, but I guess in that situation it was relatively safe to do so.  

One challenge for me was to avoid getting run over that friendly bmp (with CiA tags on it, Tony/Variable ?), the movement seemed very unpredictable... and ended up very sadly in Yvetot, when young civilian woman got killed under their tracks. It was not pretty sight. I tried to "revive" her, but she was gone...  :'(

(12-07-2009, 03:54 PM)Osku link Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't know exactly what was happening in the battlefield, because I stayed back/in cover, and perhaps had not concentrated on the mission plan well enough.

Well, the plan developed in the briefing only extended to around checkpoint 2 but since we already made contact prior to reaching checkpoint 1 most of the decisions were made on the fly in the TS channel commander chat.

Good morning, folks,

My squad, Alpha Yellow, despite a few challenges I'll mention below, performed very well. Good job, guys - it was a treat to confirm your kills via the binocs throughout this mission! Sorry for getting us all killed.

1. I should have kept tighter control of my squad's activities. The FF on Siil and the civ kill were symptomatic of that issue.
2. At a certain point, I was tasked with spotting an enemy MT-LB, which I was unable to do. At that point, I became a little disoriented with where things were on the map (condition present until we moved into the town).
3. Alpha Yellow's response to contact was excellent - absolutely overwhelming and impressive to watch in the binoculars - I hardly pulled the trigger on my weapon.
4. Having the BMP with us was both comforting and nerve-wracking: that firepower is a joy to have on hand; on the other hand, there were a few times where, I, like Osku, feared getting run over.
5. If I recall correctly, a few things happened which hindered Alpha Yellow's move into the town. First, I observed a bit of desync - at one point our BMP was south of dismounted Alpha Yellows and moving in the direction of the town and then things halted for a bit (soldiers running in place, audio stuck. . .). Next thing I know, the BMP is north of our position and moving. Unfortunately, during this time, I was also tasked with changing a diaper (not mine, I promise), which I managed still seated in front of the computer.
Thanks go to Osku for medding tasks in town!
6. In our last movement to a position north of the farm, I encountered a problem with giving a waypoint to my driver (plotted 430m east of our location, transmitted as 1700m north, not sure why. . .). Got it managed with Hawke's help, and then we hit our last contact. (Funny thing, in hindsight - as we took that last bit of fire, I heard someone ask, "Should we get out?" I thought, 'yeah, good idea', . . . . and then we died.)
7. At one point, I observed Variable score an AT hit with the BMP, while rapidly moving laterally, relative to the target. Awesome shot! I wish I had video for that one!
8. Regarding slotting up, I was surprised to see you all waiting in OFPWatch when I came home from some errands. I had thought you were all moving onto another mission try. I agree, 35 minutes is too long for a mission start. Slotting, I think, should take a max of 5 minutes (maybe 1 or 2 more given for folks coming in a few minutes late).

That's about all I can think of for now. All in all, it was a lot of fun, and I'm looking forward to more!

hello fellas, thanx again for the great true coop ofp night we had yesterday.

-1st, i wanna thanx all the players in my squad for beeing so amazingly professional during the battle, and this was prooved by the fact that we did not have a single casualty or injury (ok ok peki needed a med at a certain point, but that was related to boarding a veichle with bad desynch ), and even in that occasion he stayed put in a safe position waiting for mighty osku to arrive with his magic medical tools....and belive me, no more than 3 minutes passed from when i radioed zwobot for med support till osku arrived.....and considering that we were not visible (hidden in a small valley) and close to nme position that was alerted of our presence coz of a previous fight....i say that was a great support action in a hot area.

-2nd i want to say thanx to zwobot for beeing such a calm and responsable Platoon commander who makes squad leaders feel safe and never alone.

-3rd thanx to marto and his wise use of artillery support (which gives a super realistic touch to missions). ok ok marto i think we had 5 min of misunderstanding with impact zone, and all my squad noticed this when we had friendly shells blasting an area that was way too close to us, LOL i think my squad members were kinda scared when we all relized that those bombs were falling way too close to us.......i felt anxiety in theyr comments LOL.

-in the end i wanna say thanx to anguis and his squad, even if we were acting far away from eachother i had the feeling that they were doing good (ff and civilian killing apart ) and it was such a shock when i saw them blowing up in that bmp from our position....so dramatic. u hear a blast and after 3 secs u see anguis's bmp blowing up with fireworks..........then radio silence......then "dead guys don't talk" LOL that is when said to my squad: "i think we lost some friendlyes there" and they all went:" ohhh noo, shit, crap..damn.....damn!" so realistic i rell ya

mission was great too, with a good balance between our firepowere and number of nme.

basiccly i am telling u all that i had a great time again.........thanx to all.
shame that grip did not make it in the end..i hope he'll be able to fix his problems with his PC soon...

one last BRAVO! to slash who demonstrated that practicing with wgl at wepons in the editor is a really wise thing to do......what a great shot he did on that btr.....300 meters away....killed with a single shot...well done pal.

bye bye

P.S.
hawke next time pick a slot in my squad coz i promised your mom that i would have taken care of u in the battle

(12-07-2009, 06:30 PM)gum link Wrote: [ -> ]"dead guys don't talk"

Yes, regarding this, for the record going forward with operations like this, if I end up dead, I will go silent to the end.
I felt bad responding, but figured I'd do it that time, but no more after.

It's cool that we added a bit of drama!

Quote:mission was great too, with a good balance between our firepowere and number of nme.

Agreed - never a dull moment!

(12-07-2009, 07:06 PM)Anguis Viridis link Wrote: [ -> ][quote author=gum link=topic=1994.msg10700#msg10700 date=1260203412]
"dead guys don't talk"

Yes, regarding this, for the record going forward with operations like this, if I end up dead, I will go silent to the end.
I felt bad responding, but figured I'd do it that time, but no more after.
[...][/quote]

I wish all players did, this adds A LOT to the immersion


@gum

no matter what excuse you make up, you will NOT get my ammo. Apart from that, my platoon commander ordered me to slot in the other squad, in yours where only crew left anyway.

Hi all, thanks a lot for the nice long mission. As for being the ass that shot a friendly AND killed some babies and women I can just say I am sorry. I am a bit rusty... Just one word at my defense: I guess that this is some sort of a WGL bug but once a driver embarks on a BMP the weapon choice switches to Fagot missiles on itself- that's why I fired a missile into that kintergarden... I thought I had my 7.62 selected but fired an AT missile instead, so all- mind your weapon selection while disembark and embark occur while you are gunning.

Apart from that, I think that Anguis tried communicating on channel commander several times but we disturbed him by talking on our team channel. On that respect I have several reccomendations:
1. We need to pay attention when the leader says- "Standby". When he does just shut up and let him communicate with the other leaders.
2. Leaders- don't hessitate to be more assertive and say "Squad! silence!" or something of that sort when you receive transmission over channel commander. It's a military sim after all, yellings will hust add to the immersion hehe
3. Leaders calling for other leaders: Start talking only after you are sure that the other leader have your full attention, he may be still silencing his squad in order to hear you properly. Just call them and ask if they are ready to receive, or something of that sort. What I used to do while leading was simply call out the other leader's name and wait for his response before starting to transmit.

(12-07-2009, 10:21 PM)Variable link Wrote: [ -> ]I thought I had my 7.62 selected but fired an AT missile instead, so all- mind your weapon selection while disembark and embark occur while you are gunning.

Haha, yeah I thought that might have happened... I've had that happen to me too, don't worry, that kindergarten didn't bother us any more - you really fixed it...

Regarding the comms and channel commander - some good points you make there, and some good advice.

I think Zwobot mentioned this once, there is no problem with everyone having channel commander on, then they can hear all the commander comms, but just not transmit on the commander channel. For those that aren't familiar, you switch channel commander on and you can hear all the leaders' transmissions, but if you want to transmit to the other leaders you need to hold an assigned key down. So by having it on you can hear everything, have the "bigger picture" of the battlefield and also know when your squad leader is talking or listening to channel commander.

Also, who was that crazy driver of your's...? I had to dive out of the way a couple of times... It wasn't that crazy character Hawke was it....  ;D There were no civilian casualties in the town after it was cleared... and the residents were very happy with our presence, that is until Hawke reversed right through a preschool building, and made road pizza out of the teacher...

Some other radio chatter overheard:

Corporal Anguis (in a distressed tone): "How can you shoot women and children?!!"

Private Variable (BMP gunner): "You just don't lead 'em as much, and make sure to use AT-5s!!!"

;D ;D  8)

(12-07-2009, 06:30 PM)gum link Wrote: [ -> ]-3rd thanx to marto and his wise use of artillery support (which gives a super realistic touch to missions). ok ok marto i think we had 5 min of misunderstanding with impact zone, and all my squad noticed this when we had friendly shells blasting an area that was way too close to us, LOL i think my squad members were kinda scared when we all relized that those bombs were falling way too close to us.......i felt anxiety in theyr comments LOL.

No no, don't worry I had total control over those shells.... trust me.... 8) 8)

I did call "Danger close" didn't I..... oh maybe I forgot.... Lucky I didn't use WP near, with the wind blowing towards you...

Yeah you have to watch those 152mm bad boys... they have a big safe splinter distance....

(12-07-2009, 11:32 PM)Marto link Wrote: [ -> ]I think Zwobot mentioned this once, there is no problem with everyone having channel commander on, then they can hear all the commander comms, but just not transmit on the commander channel. For those that aren't familiar, you switch channel commander on and you can hear all the leaders' transmissions, but if you want to transmit to the other leaders you need to hold an assigned key down. So by having it on you can hear everything, have the "bigger picture" of the battlefield and also know when your squad leader is talking or listening to channel commander.

I do like the comms as-is. If there is a way for them to overhear only my side of the leaders' conversation, I'd go for that (if I hold down both transmit keys, would that work?).

Quote:Also, who was that crazy driver of your's...? I had to dive out of the way a couple of times... It wasn't that crazy character Hawke was it....  ;D There were no civilian casualties in the town after it was cleared... and the residents were very happy with our presence, that is until Hawke reversed right through a preschool building, and made road pizza out of the teacher...

At that point, our fellow CiA stalwart, Rotund Anthony, was at the wheel. ;D

(12-07-2009, 11:32 PM)Marto link Wrote: [ -> ]I think Zwobot mentioned this once, there is no problem with everyone having channel commander on, then they can hear all the commander comms, but just not transmit on the commander channel. For those that aren't familiar, you switch channel commander on and you can hear all the leaders' transmissions, but if you want to transmit to the other leaders you need to hold an assigned key down. So by having it on you can hear everything, have the "bigger picture" of the battlefield and also know when your squad leader is talking or listening to channel commander.

Yes I mentioned it in The Shrine Briefing. However there are downsides: if everyone would be listening in the Channel Commander Net the hierarchy of passing commands only through the squadleaders is almost eliminated and this might lower immersion from my point of view. I recommend to be selective with allowing channel commander access for non-leaders on a case to case basis...

(12-07-2009, 11:32 PM)Marto link Wrote: [ -> ]Some other radio chatter overheard:

Corporal Anguis (in a distressed tone): "How can you shoot women and children?!!"

Private Variable (BMP gunner): "You just don't lead 'em as much, and make sure to use AT-5s!!!"

;D ;D   8)

Anyone who runs, is a VC. Anyone who stands still, is a well-disciplined VC.

Edit:

(12-07-2009, 11:52 PM)Anguis Viridis link Wrote: [ -> ]I do like the comms as-is. If there is a way for them to overhear only my side of the leaders' conversation, I'd go for that (if I hold down both transmit keys, would that work?).

Yeah I'd like that too. You can assign the same key as your "whisper to channel commanders" to the action "whisper to parent channel" (or maybe sub-channel/channel family - I'm not sure but nothing a quick test shouldn't reveal). You'd still have to announce something like "Squad - silence! I'm talking on the radio". This way everyone knows you're about to talk as channel commander...