That's probably because ASR AI. They are more human like, and will spot you if you are very close to them even at night. That guy who noticed me last night was acting very naturally, I was very proud of him. It really looked natural - he walked very close to me, stopped to have a better look as if he wasn't sure he saw something, and only after a pause lifted his rifle and then I popped him.
I enable ASR client side to test it and I came with the same result. They walk right pass me in the night.
Ok, I'll go with best AI to use with be ASR AI since default would be too stupid. I find it absurd to be able to run around the AI's face and not have them detect you. Does anyone know how to get it working right on clients. I can still sit around and have an AI walk right over me if I launch ASR AI client sided...
As for testing my Arma 3 stealth mission (I manage to solo Robbing the Tempest multiple times <as long as I don't fire my weapon, I should be ok, but that works out for pure sneaking>).
Ok, I just played around with knowsabout to test for stealth.
Seems like I fire a silence weapon near the guy but don't him them, knowsabout is now at 0.1 . The magic "detection" number for knowsabout is 0.7 . Whenever you shoot and your bullet hits the guy, knowsabout is automatically set to 1.5 (unless it is higher). Knowsabout can range from 0 to 4. At that point, the guy will need to die since alarm system is on 0.7 or else it'll trigger. Even at that point, its a gameble on whether the trigger goes or not since you're at 1.5 and if another AI besides that guy you killed is aware, alarm goes I guess. In that case, you're better off not even thinking about shooting any people. So if you have an alarm system using trigger detected by, probably best to not shoot unless Alarm goes off, so prefer way of beating this mission would be, don't get spotted, and only use silence bullets on light bulbs. After 2 min, knowsabout will reset back to 0 (or if you go out of range from the enemies <which is basically farther than the max viewdistance but that would be crazy>).
So for alarm system type of mission, it should be design around some way to sneak into the objective and not fire a single shot. Another thing about knowsabout I'll probably say (the big WTF/flaws of it) are satchel charges and mines.
There's this one sander mission we played one time, the convoy automatically shot Variable through a bush because it hit Variable's mines and satchels. Because Variable killed the convoy and that it is registered as HIS kills and whoever else who took out the convoy, knowsabout is now 1.5 so the AI automatically knows that Variable is behind the bush or whoever else had satchels and mines that hit the convoy (which is bs). I think that, if you create an explosion that does not count as YOUR kill, then your knowsabout would not raise and I think you might be safe hiding unless bush provides no sense of concealment in Arma, that would be another story. I think a car bomb that you remote denonate would do the trick since it is civilian object that won't register as your kill.
The system I thought up for my Robbing the Tempest mission was actually detect by Aware -> Combat setting. If enemy was in Combat mode long enough, the trigger triggers. Alwarren's right about just use detected by instead of check combat mode. Checking combat mode is actually more punishing than the knowsabout system since AI will switch to Danger if shot near or if someone dies. Silent dropping will also switch danger mode of another nearby AI grouped or not group to Danger. (The mission is still easy to beat anyways, if you're not trigger happy)
I think the combat mode detection would only work if AI are EXTREMELY scattered out that you can drop one while the next one is at least maybe about 50-100 (more so around 100 I think, not sure) meters, for dropping each of them individually for stealth kills. It wouldn't be realistic, but I guess it works if you want to kill people. They have to be isolated.
Overall, if the base is compressed, enemies are near, and there is an alarm system on detection (depends on which method of detection you use), the goal would be, don't shoot anyone (light bulbs are ok). (I guess stealth purist would say the most successful forms of stealth is the one that you don't kill anyone at all).
If it is breaking in the somewhere through the midst of combat, you can shoot people. Best that you try to avoid still to keep knowsabout low, but it won't be as punishing.
NEXT TEST:
Loud vs silence weapons. My knowsabout went to automatically 1.35 after firing a loud weapon about 100 meters from the AI, I'm detected. Silence weapons, I'm not detected. I guess that makes silence weapons in Arma have a purpose to... shoot light bulbs but not people since you're automatically at 1.5 detection if you shoot people.
If enemies shoot at you, knowsabout goes up and up. So I pretty much wouldn't need the detect for gunfire script or anything since knowsabout already went over the magic number for alarm to trigger at that point.
Very nice and useful observations there.
It would be interesting whether rifles vs. pistol makes any difference
Phantom you should put this on the Arma 3 forums. It might lead to some fixes in this area, specifically the satchel kill detection, and AI hive mind.
Ok, I tried it in Arma 3, I blew up a tank with a Mine, my knowsabout level is now 1.5 because I killed something. I hid behind some lower dirt but I can see over it and the tank did not see me instantly. I guess I'll drop the knowsabout level for detection on that end unless you're at a certain radius of it I guess. Quick question, how close were we to the convoy on that sander mission by the bush. I assume that bushes in Arma and concealment aren't very good, I guess I was behind a house or to the side of it so that gives me cover or something. I'll assume, AI sees through bush then, but not buildings unless they clip through it.
Not sure if I should post my stealth findings or assumptions in Arma 3 yet, I tested it with Arma 2 at first.
(03-25-2014, 05:27 PM)Alwarren link Wrote:It would be interesting whether rifles vs. pistol makes any difference
I tried in Arma 2, doesn't matter pistol or rifle if you fire an unsupress weapon in the sky, your knowsabout goes to 1.35 . Suppress and your knowsabout stay safe unless your bullet hit near the target and they get alerted, which will then make your knowsabout 0.1 because your weapon was suppressed (unless you hit the guy with your bullet, your knowsabout is now 1.5 <which is why stealth kills doesn't work>).
Oooo, I just tried shooting someone with a suppress weapon in Arma 3, its different. I didn't shoot at them, I shot near them. Knowsabout is now 1.35 vs Arma 2 knowsabout was only 0.1 .
All tests were done with unmodded AIs.
ARMA 3
MK18 silence to the side -> 1.35
P07 silence over the head -> 1.30465
MK18 over head loud -> 1.35
P07 over the head loud -> 1.35
MK18 silence shot up in the air for no reason -> 0
MK18 loud shot up in the air for no reason -> 0.8
P07 silent shot up in the air for no reason -> 0
P07 loud shot up in the air for no reason -> 0.45699
ARMA 2
All silence weapon -> 0.1
All loud weapon -> 1.35
I'll post it up eventually on the forums. I don't have any conclusions on what the datas mean yet, but they're all part of my analyzation, hypothesis, or observation.
One more thing I'd like to test would be "X-Ray vision AI or knowsabout in effect or the combination of both". This goes back to the AI shooting us through the bush thing again. I'll probably test that on the same mission. If I just lay down in the bush, and do nothing and the AI goes pass me, I'll assume X-Ray Vision and knowsabout (I'll try that with the satchel charges or mines next to confirm). If they just shoot me, I'll assume just X-Ray Vision. I have no assumption for a case where I blow them up and they cannot find me.
Ahh yes, I've seen that addon before. I was planning to work it around to just ASR AI. Stealth skill and recognition is also customizable. I don't remember whether it was MP compatible or not. It's been a while so yeah. I was mainly planning to work a mission around without it.
^Good reading above. If someone is interested, additional recent results below (crude test mission attached in Debriefing-thread post). All tests done with vanilla A3, version 1.46.
Shooting up to air, away from AI:Â
-Silenced P99 (9mm). Forest. Light overcast, no rain. Distance 30m. Ridge between me and AI (i.e no visual)
- 1 shot. KN = 0 > No reaction.
- 3 shots. KN 0.31 > AI starts searching. No trigger detection.
Silenced Vermin (.45ACP). Same conditions.
- 1 shot KN = 0 > No reaction.
- 3rnd burst. KN = 0. No reaction.
- 30rnd full auto. KN = 0.5X. Starts searching. No trigger detection but damn close to.
For the rifles (6.5mm) 40m seems to be safe distance, providing you use single shots. This is pretty much ok. I wouldn't mind bit less detection range for pistols/SMGs for stealth gameplay purposes but can't really complain. Silencers in rl aren't like they are in movies and this is Arma, not Hitman.
Kills:
1-shot kill with a headshot from 40m. Helmet/no helmet or caliber used made no difference. Same conditions as above.
- In 99% cases KN jumps exactly to 1.35 and stays there at least for several seconds even if the shot has been made directly from the back and no one has witnessed it. If mission maker uses 'detectedBy' triggers, this is enough to fire the trigger. Treshold for 'detectedBy' trigger seems to be around 0.59-0.8.
1-shot kill with a headshot from 300m. Silenced .338 sniper rifle.
- KN = 0. No detection.
1-shot kill with a headshot from 120m. Silenced 7.62mm.
- KN = 0. No detection.
2-shot kill with doubletap to center of mass. 120m. Unsilenced 7.62mm.
- KN = 0. No detection.
2-shot kill to center of mass. 5s between shots. 120m. Unsilenced 7.62mm.
- KN = 1.5. Trigger detection.
It seems to be somehow connected to the distance. Even if the player is directly behind AI, but the distance is short enough, AI still manages to detect the shooter even if death is instant with no visual contact to attacker. Obviously if there is another AI group close, they can still detect shots/you even if you kill the target silently.
Movement:
- Normal crawling >12m. OK. KN = 0
- Normal crawling >7m. Usually OK.
- Sprint crawling adds detection range by 3-5m.
- Normal walk (crouch)< ~20m. KN > 0.xx > Starts searching
- Running (crouched)Â < ~40m. KN > 0.xx > Starts searching
- Sprinting adds 5-10m to detection distance.
When you move too close, the KN jumps to something between 0.17-0.45, and AI starts searching for you, even if waypoint is "HOLD". IF you have cover close, and can somehow make it there and be still..the KN eventually begins to go down.
Usually players are crouch running/sprinting too close. When they start crawling, the detection has already happened. You have to hit the dirt really far to play it safe.
There might be small difference in detection skills between soldier classes. For example recon type soldier (B_recon_F)Â has detectSkill = 30, where normal soldier (B_Soldier_F) has detectSkill = 20 (figures from editor configviewer>cfgVehicles). I have not been able to notice any difference in practice though.
This is a good read. Making a super proper stealth mission is quite rough. I think most stealth missions for purest stealth (say a 2 player stealth mission or solo) best revolve around being possible to completely avoid all targets without firing a shot (some kills may be optional, but again, its extremely risky). So I guess you can't put guys too close to X Y or Z next to each other or something.
I'm also glad to hear that each different weapons or different calibers have different detection ranges.
I went a different route and avoided the inbuilt stealth mechanics entirely.
The single stealthy protagonist, dressed in civvies with a silenced pistol, is set as captive. Each patrolling enemy has a trigger to set the captive status off - you can have different radii and timeouts for each if you wanted to make it a bit more random.
There's an overall count thislist < to represent the garrison as a whole becoming suspicious and becoming alert. I've not, but you could make this a random number.
It's a workaround and requires some setting up, but it gives the illusion of being a stealth mission.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/fi...210004155#
Hey SeKara, welcome to the CiA Forum
